I don't think that people choose to be gay.. and so they had to be born that way.. trying to make a "gay" person "straight" is like trying to make a "black" person "white" just like we don't choose our skin color, we don't get to choose our sexual preference.. Besides, I kinda find it hard to believe that they would choose to be gay and choose to be the subject of people's judgment, discrimination, hostility, and abuse. I also find it hard to believe that a person would want to be ostracized by the people who are supposed to love them unconditionally.. I know a person who has openly admitted to being gay on a forum whose majority is probably very homophobic, and this person has said that they did not choose to be the way they are.. they were born that way.. The same can be said of my friends whom are also gay.. The people who are against it come across as believing that choosing your sexual preference is as easy as flipping a switch, or reading about it in a magazine, and then deciding to be "gay until friday.." when in all actuallity it isn't that simple.

What do you think? Do you think people are born gay? Or is it a choice?

hmmm...

i dont know you cant be born gay without knowing you dont know what gay is at that time

or maybe its just a feeling they have?

i think it is a choice, because if people don't like it they can change they don't have to accept something if they don't want it, if a person is fat they can work out/train/exercise or even get medical procedures done to change things, so the same applies here. if people want to think it is innate i ask them this:
what makes it innate? what determines who is and who isn't gay? if it was genetic then isn't there a possibility we all could turn out gay eventually? and finally do people think of it as innate because it makes it easier to think of as being forced on you?

I think it's a persons choice...i mean you don't born gay......then again some people might influence that person to become one.......

if that were true then if they know that other gays have been persecuted, judged, ridiculed, discriminated against and abused at the hands of others, then why they would they choose to put themselves through that? I'd like to think that if they had a choice in the matter than they would choose to be straight and avoid the bullshit altogether.

we are all straight, but what makes us that way? we were born that way.. we can't help that we are attracted to the opposite sex, no more than they can help the fact that they are attracted to the same sex.. and we cannot change our sexuality in the same way we cannot change our skin color.

gay men choose to raise their voice..
gay men choose to act feminine..

gay men do not choose to be gay..

homosexuality occurs in nature.. there are more than 400 species of animals that have shown homosexual behavior..

I say it lies deep within a person and comes out at the right time. It's kinda like puberty for the mind...even though puberty affects the mind as well as the body. You guys get what I'm saying, right?

I think that that all the more confirms my point about it being something that you are born with..

We have all seen the internal struggle of those discovering that they are gay, and the consequences of them trying to hide it, or repress it.. if homosexuality was a choice, then it should be easy for those who "choose to be homosexual" to "choose to be heterosexual"

I think the reason they were black and white was beceause if you really are a homophobe, its almost a black and white isshue.

For example, before you took that test you knew you werent a homophobe, rght BlackAngel? And I knew I would be at least somewhat homophobic. It seprates the true homophobes from the non-homophobes.

Yes, but even you yourself said "somewhat" which implies that there is a little gray in there..

There is a difference between "somewhat" and "absolutely."

Auctually the main reason I said somewhat is beceause I know alot of pro-gay people and I didn't want anyone thinking less of me for it...

For the most part I would never make a gay friend, but I'm also not the kind of guy who would abandon a firend if he BECAME gay, or if he was gay the whole time and I didn't know.

...Long as the ****** doesent hit on me I'm good.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are sysnonymous, in that you don't become that way, you simply are or you aren't.. and it is present from birth.

Gays have their standards too, in fact, MUCH higher than most of the heteros out there, (Why do you think that most of them work out, are hygenic, and have excellent taste in fashion?) so if I were you, I wouldn't worry about them hitting on you.

If they are going to think less of you, then they wouldn't do it because you are against homosexuality, but that you would think that they'd want to hit on you.

The same thing would apply if you thought every straight female you encountered would hit on you. If every straight girl you knew or saw wouldn't hit on you, then why assume every gay male would do the same?

It makes no sense, but hey, your beliefs are yours to have. :)

The hitting on part was a joke. I know no homo would hit on me. >.>'

Also I disagree. Many say homosexuality is from birth, but I belive this occurs in maby only half. I belive its upbringing, people you hang out with, ect, added in with how you are from birth.

Also I bet theres loads of guys who would, under normal circumstances, be gay, only they dont for religious reasons, or beceause friends would think less of them. I'd say its just as much your choice as your birth that affects it.

But I guess I really have no clue. I defnatly do not claim to be any expert, and many of my ideas are highly biased.

Topic split, merged, so now, it is part of a discussion.

1. By saying that homosexuality is a choice, you are saying that heterosexuality is a choice, and in that case, I'd love to hear about how old you were when you chose to be straight, and when the opportunity to do so had presented it self.

Seriously, because if you did in fact, choose to be straight, then I need you to tell me where you got the documents, so I can go sign them and register myself as Straight. I'd really like to get married, and the last thing I need is the state of NY telling me that I can't because I never chose whether or not I was Straight, or Gay..

2. Did you just say that there are loads of guys who would be gay, under normal circumstances? Sorry to say, but that sounds like bullshit. I have friends who are gay, and they say that they wish that they weren't, and tried to be 'straight' but it didn't work out. They said that they had to accept the fact that they were gay, and be happy with it.

So yes, even the gays don't want to be gay.

3. If Homosexuality is a choice, then why is the suicide rate among young homosexuals so high? Why would they choose to be gay, and choose to be subjected to people's abuse, hatred, and cruelty? Why would they choose to be ostracized by their families, friends, and the rest of society? Why not choose to be straight and avoid that altogether? You'd think that since they chose to be gay, hat they'd be happy with it right?

4. You don't have to be an expert, because THEY are. If you can't take the words out of a homosexuals mouth when they say that homosexuality is something you are born with, as first-hand knowledge, as they have first-hand experience, then you cannot take anything that you learned in history class, as well as anything you read in the bible as knowledge.

Why? Because you were not there to witness the events that took place, and any information or knowledge that you acquire as a result, would be SECOND-HAND.

You can't say that you believe the words and accounts of those who never witnessed the event, or lived through it and take it as fact, and then, turn around and say that you can't believe the words that are coming from someone who is living and breathing right before you, and therefore living through it. <= Because that would be a HUGE self-contradiction on your part, and you'd also be a hypocrite.

That is like me saying that I am an atheist, but every Sunday, I go to church to praise God.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, the abuse that society puts the Gay's through, is synonymous with the abuse that society put the Blacks through more than 40 years ago.

Both abuses were based on something that neither groups have any control over.

Througout this discussion BA, I've noticed several big assumptions on your part which could hurt your argument...

No we haven't, in both that not everyone has seen that struggle, and even those that have may not have seen all of it. Let alone be in that position ourselves, so really we have no idea what any of that is like.

And your assuming that a say it was a choice, that it would be an easy one to make. Still by saying it's a choice, I am in no way ruling out that genetics play a part in it, but then again so does nurture. And nurture may be where the choice comes from. Your genetics may say your at a disposition to be gay, but your upbringing and own personal choices may either subconsciously override the genetics or overtly and you knowingly override them.

All I am saying is ultimately the person has a choice to make, they can accept it or they can fight it. Their genetics say one thing but that's not the be all, end all.
Like I said if they really DESPERATELY wanted to they could change gender or if that was too drasic then they could stay as they are, but repress those feelings (That also doesn't assume it'll always work. Very little is ever definite in this world.)

Fair enough, I admit that there is a bit of an assumption there.

The bottom line is this, that is you have no choice over who you fall in love with, or are attracted to..

You are absolutely right, in life, anything can happen, it is likely that you may find yourself attracted to someone you said you'd never consider.

The biggest homophobe on the block could turn out that he wasn't really afraid of gays, but the possibility that he might be gay himself.

A man who considers himself to be god's gift to women, and claims he's been with more than 300 women, could turn out to be gay himself.

Genes or not, if a person actually had control over their sexual orientation, then don't you think that they'd move heaven and earth to try to change it, so that they can fit in and be accepted and treated like everyone else?

There'd honestly be no point in remaining gay, if they tried to be straight, and it didn't work, and they hated themselves for it, and the rest of society treats them like shit because of it, and they're being disowned by their family because of it. They wouldn't kill themselves over something they had control over, they just do everything they could to change it, and never accept that they were born the way they were.

Virus Zero put into words what I tryed and failed to say myself.

However I'm just going to spectate and add comments here and there from now on, my thought process is too biased for true argument.

I've studied this at school and here is my theory, based off of Sigumnd Frued and Carl Huong's theories.

It's through the development stages, before puberty, that determine the sexuality of the child, it's believed that everyone is born bisexual and from there they choose their sexuality through their life.

Or something like that....

I have an odd question, that may or may not answer when it is that sexual preference is detrimined.

When did people start being homosexual? Who started it? And why? Untill one person started doing it I would assume that most people did what was...well...Natural, and what served a purpose.

Actually, it's true that men had sex with each other during the roman empire, more-so then with women. Women were more for reproduction, while men were.. Yes, for each other. There was a huge love between each other during those times, or that is my understanding.

As for whether you choose to be gay. I really don't think you can. Think about this for a moment... I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible, otherwise no one will understand what I'm trying to explain because it'll be too jumbled up...

The best analogy is that it's like being retarded. Do you think they chose to be retarded? No, it's a genetic imbalance. It's easy to make a better suggestion that homosexuals come from a similar set...

People can't really choose... We can't help who we're attracted to. Why? Because it's not only physical stuff, but mental. Even if you consciously tell yourself to not be gay, you mentally sub-consciously can't control it. It's there. Hell, it's been proven that it's not about who you grow up with or anything. Men who are around a lot of women won't necessarily end up acting feminine, and if they're around a lot of guys that doesn't even mean they'll end up liking those guys... It's not based around experience, it's not based on your choice.. It's purely mind influenced, whether you know it or not.

Why? Because it's natural, yes I said natural, for a person to be attracted to the opposite sex. That is in our human nature and our genetics, which brings me to the point that genetics would make much more sense then choice... What if there was something wrong, or a chemical imbalance in a person's genetics? That could easily shift someone's preference.

The best analogy is that it's like being retarded. Do you think they chose to be retarded? No, it's a genetic imbalance. It's easy to make a better suggestion that homosexuals come from a similar set...

Also... Before language, no one understood what gay was. But guess what, we wouldn't have reproduced unless it was normal for people to be attracted to the opposite sex, unless that was an instinct. It's not a choice. Sexuality is an instinct, probably based off of genetics. After all, our genes are out blue-prints, they tell us what to do and develop us.

In all honesty, I think it boils down to this, you have no control over who your heart chooses. That is true of gays, and it is especially true of those who are straight.

I think that if we had a choice over who our heart chose for us to love, then we'd all be in perfect relationships.

I know that while my stance on this is that homosexuality is something that you are born with, it can be attributed to the fact that I also think that it is something that is dormant within you until you reach in that point in your life where you start noticing changes within your own body, sexual urges, and what causes those sexual urges.

As kids, we know that there are boys and that there are girls.. but it isn't until we hit puberty that we start noticing them. We don't have control over those funny feelings we experience when we see or think of someone we like, and we have no control over who causes them. And it is because we have no choice over who we fall in love with, or are attracted to, that has become the basis for my stance on this issue.

Ok heres something to add: I have heard of alot of storys about kids who met when they were really young, who even before they hit puberty, talked about gettting marryed, even before sexual urge was there.

What if those kids had a "Chemical inbalance"? After the years growing up, years of friendship, BAM! They suddingly don't wana hang out? Not realy convinceing me...

I think once you hit a certain point, you have no controll, after all: humans, like all animals, arent born with sexual urges, they grow into the urge. Have you thought that maby this "Chemical Inbalance" or whatever, could happen at puberty?

I will admit that once your gay...Theres not much that will make you sub-coinciously WANT to be straight, however I just can't be convonced that its decided at birth, that life occurences don't play a role, that no outside source could also be the blame, that has become the basis for my stance on this issue.

*Takes a Tennis Swing*
Balls in your court! =D
*Crude attempt to make a serious talk more lighthearted.*

That's very possible, seeing as hormones are what decide are sexual urges and when we get them. But it's also possible that it's there before puberty, just not active until puberty.

I met a guy once who lived his whole life as a gay man. And then just suddenly decided he didn't agree with the life style and changed to straight, even seeking a girlfriend. I think people who are persecuted, go through it just to maintain their right to choose for themselves. It's not even about being gay, when it comes to persecution. They endure pressure just to defend their rights as a human being. If it were possible to be "born" gay then i would assume that the people who believe this also believe it is man's destiny to wipe itself out of existence. Just like people learn to use all other things incorrectly and find pleasure in it, so too the human body. One could argue that they were "born" with an attraction to dogs, or horses. People have a penis, they found a use for it other than male/female relations, homosexuality is born. I don't think people give enough credit to humanity for it's ability to imagine new uses for things. Like the atomic bomb. That didn't just happen by accident.