I keep buying sonic games hoping that they are going to be "good" because everytime i read a preview they try to make it better. But in the end its still no good. I just recently got Sonic The Hedgehog (2006) and it was crap, the load screens were way to long and to numerous. I think what may be the problem is the ranking system they have been using since Sonic Adventure. Where depending on your score and time you get anywhere between an D to an A. And they encourage you to get "All A's" on every mission, which is to tedious especially on a horrible game.

What i would really like to see is a 3d revamp of sonic and knuckles, and with the greatness of DLC they could have the option of adding in characters.

Uh....Sonic 2006 was glitchy as hell. The whole point of the Rank system is replay value, which most people (I.E IGN) dont get. Its to keep you coming back to play. FFSX6 had 3 modes. It was there so you guys can comeback. A different challenge every time.

Sonic 2006, is a game that COULD have been great. The idea was great, and the story wasn't bad. Some people cant look passed the fact that sonic got kissed by a human. Big whoop, grow up. Mario gets macked on by big breasted ghost in paper mario, kissed by goombas in PM2. Does anyone complain? No. The voice acting was pretty good, it was the terrible glitches that ruined the game.

As for the revamp of sonic and knuckles, most people would love it. The revamp of Green Hill zone in Sonic Adventure 2, was amazing. I personally like the ranking system. It is there to improve your skills.

BTW, Sonic unleashed came out, why don't you get that? Its much better than Sonic 2006.

I heard unleashed wasnt that great. If anything i may rent it. If it werent for the whole were-hog bit i would probably like it. I never played GHZ on SA2 i didnt want to get all S Rank missions, waaaay to tedious.

the part where sonic kissed the girl didnt bother me one bit, it was just the damn loading screens. I also didnt enjoy silver to much either, they keep kranking out new hedgehogs for no reason and i wont be surprised if he gets his own game;much like shadow did.

I just want Robotnik to be treated as an evil genius instead of some dope with a lame nickname.

My idea of a perfect sonic game would be DR. ROBOTNIK secures the 7 chaos emeralds and unleashes an army of robots into New Mobius(sp?), Omega would be featured among them of course. Knuckles some how gets tricked by Robotnik again and Robotnik steals the master emerald, turning it into a powersource for his new egg carrier. And Robotnik has Metal Sonic gaurding it, along with his own mini-army of shadow clones. Sonic in his vast attempt to save Mobius tries to recollect all 7 chaos emeralds and stop robotniks plan. He gets help along the way from friends he has met in the previous Sonic games, which you never get to play as (YAY!)

And as a bonus you can download other characters and complete the game with them if you so desire.

That sounds like a horrible, HORRIBLE game(not really). Why the heck would Knuckles get tricked again? Why the heck would you wanna go that now-overly-cliched route for some emeralds? If anything, leave the M.A be, that way there's a small hope for the good 'ol hyper energy later on.



...but then, that's just my opinion. And I do agree with most of what you say about the sonic games. I may not give any care towards unleashed, but I still wanna try out Chronicles.

I've pretty much stated my ideas for a perfect Sonic game...

Seen here

So here are the relevant bits:

So basically what I want is:

- Working controls (first and foremost get these working.)
- 2D!!! (Sonic games are only good if done 2D.)
- Acurate physics (which are partly solved by being 2D.)
- Simple story with Robotnik (not eggman) as the bad guy.
- Axe all but Sonic, Knuckles and Tails (possibly keep Shadow as well... But if he stays he's just a Sonic skin, he gets no new moves.)
- Make Robotnik actually evil, not just a rival (Rival is Knuckle's position.)
- Bring back the roboticizor.
- Make Knuckles and Tails playable characters (maybe have them go through the same stages but have to take different routes due to their specialties, like Sonic 3 and Knuckles.)
- Restore use to Chaos emeralds, (if you go through the effort to get them, make them usuable in the stages. Super Sonic returns.)
- Return of Super Knuckles (Knuckles owns the master emerald, he should be able to go super, none of this retarded hedgehog only super nonsense.)
- Working multiplayer, with different multiplayer modes.

i disagree with the 2d argument....sure just sonic in 2d was fun....17 years ago...have most people forgetten about sa2? still probably the best sonic adventure in my eyes...

emotionless...i've said this to many people.. you can't go trusting reviewers on everything they say...most of it is personal opinion that has nothing to to with your taste in games.. so don't trust most reviews unless it's a very very trustworthy reviewer that will give games the score they deserve. that being said take a look at the sonic unleashed topic...there you shall find a run played by bdx....a video of why i think sonic 06 is so badly designed and a review of unleashed for the wii by yours truely...just check em out..

maby you'll learn something :B):

1. Controls work fine now.

2. Where is the development in the series? Mario went 3D, why cant sonic. Even MegaMan went 3D. To keep one series in 2D is lame. Besides, Unleashed had great 2D and 3D parts in it. Like i said before. Its time for advancements.

3. No one can get physics proper. Not even in Mario or Mega Man is the Physics 100%. Remember, this is a fantasy game where real-world physics shouldnt apply. Unless it is a tactical shooter, or a game using real world people, there is no need for perfect physics.

4. How many times are you going to use robotnik is being bad? Sonic saves the world, big whoop. Even Mario differentiated (sometimes).

5. Robotnik didn't help sonic stop gaia. Pretty much, unless something goes reallly bad, Eggman generally doesn't help Sonic.

6. I think an evil genius using animals to create is a bit....lame for him. It was fine in the earlier ones.

7. Seconded. They need to have them follow those routes. They Did in Sonic Adventure. Ever since then, non existent. To me they need to bring back the Sonic adventure style.

8. Remember that the chaos emeralds weren't a factor in sonic 3 and knuckles. It was the master emerald. the Chaos emeralds were just there to unlock the true ending. And besides there was only 6 emeralds in sonic 1. They need to pioritize the master emerald again.

9. As i see it, knuckles couldn't really care what happens to the planet. His job was to protect the M.E. think about it. He isn't a hero, and he isn't around all the time, His job is to sit his ass on the island and protect the master emerald. Super Knuckles had no real difference. He was faster, but pretty much did the same thing. Super Sonic gained a whole new set of abilities going super.

10. Seconded. I would love some co-op. Sonic not being able to get passed obstacles without tails/knuckles. Kind of like sonic heroes, but I am talking each player controls one person. Kind of like Sonic advance 3 almost, just with two people.


Point is, people need to stop with the "Sonic needs to go back to 2d" if that's the case then so does every other major video game mascot, but then again, megaman [s]never[s] barely left it. probably why the games are criticized constantly about being repetitive. C'mon, even pacman went 3D.

Sonic just needs a team that will take time with a game.. Right now, the development teams are rushing things out. they keep thinking outside the box within game play and story, I'll give them credit on that. However, it seems their ideas are failing and for good reason.

If you look at some things VZ listed, it makes sense. Eggman being evil? Well, in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, Eggman was evil. He was like a mass terrorist. He has been severely dumbed down as a villain. The only time he even tried to work with Sonic was when his plans got out of control.

And actually, Super Knuckles would be an awesome addition. You would think, Knuckles being the one who can control the master emerald, would be the first to go Super. He has control over the Chaos Emeralds with that power.

I think one mistake SEGA made was with the revival of Shadow. He should have been left dead, which would have inevitably left open roles of rivalry for Knuckles to take part in, giving him his main parts back. At least if they kept Shadow alive, they should have at least thought about his survival story a little better and not tampered with his origins story with the Black Arms.

One thing you cannot remove from the Sonic plot line is Chaos Emeralds. They've been there since the first Sonic games, with the exception of an additional being added in the second game with to give the power of Super Sonic. The Chaos Emeralds are the main theme in Sonic plot lines. As long as you can be creative about it, it won't seem repetitive.\\\

Another thing.. Game Sonic actually takes place on Earth, as Eggman says in a cut scene in SA2. Mobius is a world created for the TV series, in which you can actually spot the many differences of the worlds.

I believe Sonic needs these things to be successful:

-A good story, creative and still revolving around the Chaos Emeralds.
-Eggman/Robotnik as the main villain, responsible for the plot and final villain or just him in general.
-A more evil Eggman.
-The return of the Sonic/Knuckles rivalry and the loss of Shadow's spotlight. I don't think he's such an important character. I think Shadow was better in SA2 and they've tampered with him too much to create something stereotypical and overshadowing of Sonic.
-Tails as Sonic's best buddy, important as a character.
-Super Sonic, Super Knuckles, Hyper forms maybe even, and Super Tails again maybe. Everything from S3&K IS in fact cannon.


I think a possible successful storyline would be a Sonic origins story. If done right it could turn out well, but Sonic Team and SEGA have a way of distorting projects, turning them toward what new fans want and not what their veteran fans care for, which may in fact have a better chance in saving the blue blur. Hell, why don't they try something THEY want for once?

Well, Sonic needed them to stop Eggman, so in a way, they were part of the plot line and if you remember, Sonic actually has them at the beginning of the game. S3&K picks up right after StH2. The whole storyline between the two is Eggman trying to launch the Death Egg. Actually, the Super Emeralds were more prevalent in S3&K's storyline, which may inference Sonic's need of and extra power to stop Eggman.

Also, if you remember. There was no Master Emerald in the first game, the Chaos Emeralds have always held significance. You haven't truly beat the game until you collected all of them, that's how it always was worked.

The emeralds have always been what the sonic games centered around. Sega cant do the things nintendo does, like a galaxy instead of a world and still make a good game.

Shadow isnt that bad of a character its just that he is a recolor, ultimately.

-Sonic should def stay 3D, 2D was only done back then because thats all the machines could handle back then. To see a console game thats 2d outside of arcade would be a slap in the face.

- I dont just follow like one review i follow like 8 different ones and if they all say something that is the same then chances are its true. And that can lead to me not wanting to check a game out.

I don't think Shadow was a bad character at first. He was villainous and seemed heartless, but really had emotion for motive. The thing that actually made Shadow more unique then any other character in the Sonic Universe is that he had a defined history. Knuckles does, in a way, but his is shrouded in mystery.

Shadow is too cliche now. He has no set backs, no limits it appears. He seems endlessly powerful and uncaring. Shadow is a ruined character. An example of what could end up happening to the entire franchise, in my opinion.

There are many paths Sonic can take, but what needs to be done is:

-Side games, like Sonic and the Secret rings and Sonic and the Black Knight.
-And then add a main story with games that fall in a sequence, or cannon line. (This has proven to be more or less hated by the fans however..)

A slap in the face you say? Hmm, Street fighter turbo 2 remix? is that a slap in the face? And what about Metal Slug? and Megaman X8? Or Marvel vs capcom 2?

I think it's only a slap if it's not done properly.

And 3D may have worked for mario, but that doesn't mean it's good that sonic be 3D. As a matter of fact most people prefer 2D sonic games over 3D ones.

Here's some evidence:


2D games

Sonic rush: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/ds/home/920803.html
Reader Review Average
8.1

Sonic Advance: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/home/516689.html
Reader Review
7.9

Sonic Advance 2: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/home/561898.html
Reader Review Average
8.1

Sonic Advance 3: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/home/918892.html
Reader Review Average
8.7

Sonic battle: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/home/914720.html
Reader Review
7.7

Sonic pinball party: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/home/589414.html
Reader Review
7.8



3D games-
Sonic heroes: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/home/914714.html
Reader Review
7.3

Sonic adventure 2: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/home/533012.html
Reader Review
8.3

Sonic adventure dx: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/home/589413.html
Reader Review
8.1

Sonic and secret rings: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/home/932811.html
Reader Review
7.3

Sonic the hedgehog 2006: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/home/929717.html
Reader Review
5.5

Shadow the hedgehog: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/home/927124.html
Reader Review
6.0


6 2D and 6 3D... On average the PEOPLE prefer the 2D games. Fact is, only 2 games has sonic team ever done close to right in 3D. (Sonic adventure 1 and 2.)
3D sonic games just aren't as well done, that's the fact. And as for this vaunted forced evolution... it's been tried, it doesn't work. It's time to realize the mistakes and do something right. Use 2.5D if you must, but not put it in 3D.

And if you'll notice I didn't use the older sonic games, because those were scored even higher than the newer ones. (Which only adds to my point. 2D is better in this case than 3D.)

And just because all the others went 3D doesn't mean Sonic has to as well. Thats akin to your mother handing you the line: "if everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you?"
And it's not like you need to go 3D to have development in a series. There are other ways to develop a series, and they're oft more effective.

Also, on my list, thats what I think would be necessary for a good sonic game. And for some of sonic team's ventures the controls don't always work right, and aren't as tight or responsive as they should be.

And as well for the physics... If they're based in real world physics then alot of things wouldn't be possible... but then again why would a 3 foot talking hypersonic hedgehog be possible? So then I'm going to say the physics need to be an accurate representation of what the character can do coupled with the world. So obviously no Sonic 2006 styled walk up walls thing. But at the same time, sonic is able to turn far quicker than physics say he should be able to.

As for the megaman and mario physics... they're certainly more believeable than sonic's physics... Megaman's jump, run and shoot are are perfectly fine. Also why I say 2D = good, as it fixes all the pesky turning issues that a physics engine would have to address. It would also simplify the controls and make it far easier to perfect them.


As for the roboticization thing, what better way to build an army than force thousands of people to become your perfect slave army? How evil is that?

As for knuckles, make a story reason for him to be there... oh maybe use the idea that Robotnik stole the master emerald? There we go, Knuckles story problem fixed. (And it's no different than the countless times bowser captures peach. That gets away with a free pass, so lets allow this one too.)
Then you could further elaborate the plan that robotnik has for the master emerald...

A return to roots isn't a bad thing, this isn't like mario... Sonic has ventured pretty far from where he started, and had some success and alot of failure.

It can also be said hat they haven't found the proper formula to create a Sonic game in 3D.. The controls seemed flawed for the most part in almost every game..

2D Sonic is much more simplistic and easier to create.. It's the problem with transferring the speed to platform and the game play. Somehow though, they did it right with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2.

Neither way is right.. Gamer's have preferences.. I'll tell you the worst solution though. Combining platforming with the 2D aspect. Bad idea right there. If anything, I think they need to go back and look at how they made the Sonic Adventures if they plan to make more 3D games..

2D games aren't what fans want on the the console systems (PS3, 360, Wii) though. Your 2D examples VZ were examples on hand held systems, which also calls for a lot different design.

One problem. Recently, it seems like the Master Emerald has disappeared from the game's existence. Was Knuckles guarding it in Sonic 06? No. Wait.. wait.. Maybe he just made it so small he carries it around like a chaos emerald. Right? I mean, after all SA2 created one of the biggest plot holes ever showing that Knuckles could change the size of the M.E. So, SEGA has created a problem for themselves right there with the Master Emerald's respective usage.

Who actually said that knuckles was sonics rival? Because he fought sonic in S3&K? Where does this state this? has sega announced that knuckles was sonics rival? Not that i remember. Rivalry tends to extend to those who are competing. Sonic is speed, knux is power. What sense does that make? Also, yes i very much think there is some sort of rivalry, but not as big as Sonic to Shadow.

Definition of Rivalry

Also, reader reviews. I find all reviews are bullshit. Because someone decides to not like a game, suddenly its a valid opinion? A review is an opinion, not an overall fact. I am not dismissing y'all opinions on the game, however if y'all follow an opinion because someone ELSE said it, i wont give it a bother. Reviews are an opinion, and opinion represents one person, not all, unless it is a surveyed review.

Also, in sonic 1/2 the only point of the emeralds were to get everything. They did not influence the ending in any way shape or form.

In no means am i saying sonic is perfect. No game is perfect, but to say that he needs to go back to 2D, is like telling graphic/web designers to use paint for everything.

As for the physics, Sonic 2006 is, once again, seriously flawed. In Sonic Unleashed, turning isn't simple. Its closer to the physics you want. its hard to really show off physics in a 2D environment. C'mon, im pretty sure you can make a simple jumping engine in flash.

As for dumbing eggman down, are you serious? His projects have gotten better. I wouldn't say their dumbing him down, as i would say they made him lazy. he gave up trying to beat sonic using his own stuff, and is now trying to unlock some super monster ultimate weapon to do all the work for him. Obviously this is an advancement. Im pretty sure bowser doesnt use the same tactic to steal the princess. Just like Sigma/Wily didn't use the same tactics, (except 8 bosses...yadda yadda).

Point is, our generation is getting older, they aren't appealing to us anymore, but a whole nother generation. My girlfriend loves the were-hog sections of Sonic Unleashed, so i guess whatever they were going for, worked. Also, i really think people are taking this gaming situation too seriously. This is why i don't play competitively, or read review sites. There will be that one person who is biased against the shit. I.E Hilary Goldstien. Play a game to play a game, not to bitch about how it isn't what you wanted. I gave my P.o.V, on Sonic. I am really tired of having this conversation, so pretty much i will either merge these topics or forward any sonic opinionated topic to this topic. We don't need to have this discussion in 5 topics.

XD I apologize in advance if anyone thinks that this was written in a rage, as i am playing assassins creed while i am typing this ^_^.

It's always been speed versus power. Red versus blue, and I'm pretty sure the manual to Sonic and Knuckles sets up the rivalry. If nothing else this has to count for something:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuckles_The_Echidna

And since they both ended up wanting to defeat Robotnik... I'm sure thats another way to have a rivalry continue... Since by your own provided definition that rival means to compete, well both competed t defeat robotnik in the end, even if they didn't know it to start with.


As far as reviews go, if alot of reviews rate low then there is an obvious problem, and if you look at the averages of the scores you will see that on average, 2D games tend to be better scoring games. (True they may be on handhelds, but that is somewhat irrelevant because the DS and PSP are certainly capable of having 3D games created for them and thusly running 3D games, so then why do 2D on a system that can do 3D? Granted the gba games could try to do 3D if they wanted, but it'd be rather different and likely even worse than the console 3D outings.)

Hmm, sonic 2's ending changed if you got the emeralds didn't it? Cause I thought if you did, half way down Sonic turned super and flew the rest of the way... Might have to check that out on youtube or something to be sure cause I could be wrong on this.

It did.. and Sonic 3 is a direct follow up of Sonic 2, so in order to make the storyline make sense you have to collect those chaos emeralds..

-Sonic rush is 2D and a half, and so is Sonic Rush Adventure

-I only said it would be a slap in the face if it was done on a console.

-Metal Slug hasnt seen a console release yet, unless you count anthology.

- Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 is a fighting game, and if u look you shall see Capcom is taking Street Fighter 4 and making it 3D not to mention MvC2 was super last gen.

- It makes more sense to make games on DS 2d because its not capable of fantastic gfx

- I feel as if Robotniks gotten lazy, it used to be you would fight him every 3rd ACT. If you look at what nintendo does with the mario series, you'll see that its always the same deep down, you never change the core mechanics in a game. And Sega has done that time and time again trying to reinvent Sonic.

well said bdx...very well said..

I was going to say more to combat vz's argument...but for some reason i forgot what i was going to say.....

well until i remember what it was i might as well tell everyone not to listen to yahtzee review sonic unleashed....he completley overdoes it and i think he forgot that he's playing the wii version of the game....oh well

and we don't need to have this discussion in 5 topics?....im sry if this is offensive but isn't that the teapot callin the kettle black? ya got about 6 topics talking about the same thing....a topic which i will not name because i don't feel like talking about it

Street fighter 4 is 2D. It uses 3D renders of the characters, but the game is 2D. Check your facts.
http://www.streetfighter.com/flash/#/sf4//en

So then are you saying that Street fighter 4 is a slap to the face? It is 2D...

As far as metal slug, I was referring to the collection. And it doesn't matter whether the game was released 2 generations ago or not, if they have it so it plays on current gen, then it counts. Technically, I could have used the classic sonic series for my comparisons earlier because they appear in several game collections as well as purchases from the Rev's virtual console.

As for being last gen, that is irrelevant, MvC2 is toted as being one of the best fighters ever.

I know what 2.5D is, and even though a game is made with that style, it still counts as 2D... And I have no issue with 2.5D, because as long as the game is done in the 2D plane, I don't care whether they use 3D models or sprites.

As for the DS... It's capable of N64 level graphics, that should be sufficient to create 3D games, they don't have to be the absurdly good PS3/360 level graphics to count.

No no you dont get it. Im not talking about the credits, i am talking about the actual ending. Don't understand? Here is an example. Sonic 2 Ending, you beat robotnik, with or without the chaos emeralds. the last fight is still the same. It it still is some super power death device. Sonic and Knuckles, If you don't get the chaos emeralds, the Master emeralds remains in Space/ the islands falls. The doomsday zone is a level specific to the game if you get the emeralds. Also, who said the story lines were connected? Last time i checked, Sonic 1 cant connect to sonic 2? What did a whole nother emeralds pop out of the blue? I don't think they even prioritize the emeralds until Sonic 3. I think they were just a bonus in Sonic 2. Don't even give me that hidden palace zone thing either, as we all know Hidden Palace zone takes place on angel island, and Sonic 2 did not.

*note* Sonic 2 did follow Sonic 3, i am just providing a counter argument, but if the chaos emeralds were used to power the death egg, how did sonic get them if the D.E was in space already? Also, in Sonic 3, how did Eggman trick Knuckles into sonic stealing his emeralds when sonic already had them? Plot hole.

Also, Fighting games HAVE to be done in 2D. The move sets require precise input. In some cases, You would have the ability to side-step in a 3d arena (such as MKG, or DOA, or Tekken series), but the moveset was still 3D.

If street fighter was done in 3D, in a certain angle, ryus hadouken would have to be Down-Right, Right, Up-left. It would make it harder.Also, Someone could just move out of the way to avoid it.

bdx....you forgot the tenkaiechi series...or however the hell its spelled....that game is done in 3d anything wrong with that?

Sonic 3 is a complete follow up on Sonic 2.. Eggman didn't use the Chaos Emeralds to power the Death Egg first. That was just natural mechanics, however, he inevitably learns of the Master Emerald's power and goes after that to bring the Death Egg back into space.

So while the Chaos Emeralds may not have directly affected the end of Sonic 2, it is a connecting bridge between Sonic 2 and 3.

Sonic 2 and 3, and Sonic and Knuckles are all directly related through the Death Egg plot. It's actually pretty hard to deny that. While Sonic 2 may have not taken place on Angel Island, it would have had to have taken place near it, because the Death Egg somehow ends up landing on Angel Island. I think it's plausible to think that, that last Chaos Emerald could have landed on the place Sonic 2 takes place in.

Sorry that my thoughts are disorganized by the way..

No, and i was going to mention it as well, but from a standstill, how hard is it to hit someone with a kamehameha? You'd have to combo them, then shoot it. And the Ki blast have homing capabilities. The hadouken doesn't.

Also, VZ stated that the emeralds effect the ending by sonic flying. but the plot of Sonic 3 was that Eggman tricked Knuckles thinking that Sonic was after his emeralds. But sonic had them already. Also, in Sonic Adventure, its pretty obvious that knuckles doesnt care about the emeralds.

To address the issue, do you remember the manual from Sonic 2? They even state that Robotnik is after the chaos emeralds again, Sonic has to collect them to stop him. (Thus being the true ending that connects to Sonic 3. And as for who says it connects? Sega... the company that makes the games. If they didn't want it to connect why would they have Supersonic appear at the start, having collected all the emeralds from Sonic 2. So that knuckles could take the emeralds and rehide them. )

As for the extra emerald... there is an extremely easy explanation... They thought there were 6, then they found out about the 7th. Remember it wasn't until Sonic Adventure did they give much backstory about the emeralds. And does the game/manual state that Sonic must collect the 6 chaos emeralds or does it state that he must collect 6 chaos emeralds? (The being the key issue here to indicate whether they are hinting there are more, or whether there are only 6... but even then this is still open to that there is another emerald.)

They never said that the chaos emeralds were actually used to power the death egg, that is your assumption. Though even playing by your assumption, if sonic hadn't gotten all the emeralds, then Sonic could have stolen them at some point so that he had them. (Then if thats the case he didn't have the experience to use them so he couldn't yet trigger them at the end for the different ending. So getting the emeralds earlier in the game would be to give Sonic time to learn to use them as well as prevent Robotnik from using them.)

If Sonic did have the emeralds, then it's quite obvious as to what occured... Robotnik found another way to power his Death Egg.

And for Sonic 3... Robotnik tricked Knuckles by making it look like Sonic was the attacker right? and Knuckles then stole the emeralds, but if it was like the newgame+ where you'd gotten the emeralds already it is a bit of a plot hole, though I suppose you could say that Sonic had forged a connection with the emeralds (from prior use) and became able to use their power even if they were far away... (This way, if it's not newgame+ you can just say that the connection wasn't forged.)

But this is just a theory, again it could be just said that it doesn't have to make sense like some of the other newgame plus options...

Techno has addressed this issue. Budokai Tenkaichi is 3D... Maybe all fighting games should evolve to 3D then? Force an evolution for them as well. I mean they've been doing things virtually the same for how long now?

Eggman's focus was the master emerald in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.... The final mission in Sonic 3 is Launch base zone, in which Eggman successfully reconstructs the death egg without an alternative power.

After the Hidden Palace Zone, Eggman gets the Master Emerald and you see Death Egg launch again.. Eggman has no interest in the Chaos Emeralds at all within that plot.. It's all around the Master Emerald.. I believe the reason he had Knuckles take the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic was to stop Sonic from using Super Sonic against him, however that's just my assumption. That and that would give credit to any motives Sonic might have at obtaining the Master Emerald.

About DBZ Budokai Tenkaiichi, the thing is that the gameplay system includes using the powers of the players. Such as flying, super speed, and the homing ki blasts. The fact is that stuff like Street Fighter is better in 2D in my opinion because you wouldnt' have any of that stuff. You couldnt' just teleport around to avoid, nor could you use super speed to avoid stuff like the Hadouken, and stuff like the spinning kick and stuff (forgot all the names) would be almost impossible to land. Therefore it's a real pain in the ass. Street Fighter is a 2D game and is better that way. DBZ is practically meant for 3D so you could ustilize the power of the characters and really give you a feel of what it's like to be somewhat of a saiyan (or human with powers w/e)

Though DBZ is also a great 2D fighting game. Look at Budokai 3, it did the best with DBZ on a 2D scale.

When i said 3D i meant containing 3D gfx, or as you put renders. If sonic were done on the 2D plane w/ 3D renders i wouldnt consider it a slap in the face at all.

MvC2 is as you say a fantasmic game, and i would never insult it. And i was only referring to current-gen when i made my statement. Collections of old school games dont really count in my book, because all they are, are ports.

The use of 3d sprites on a 2d platform is called 2.5d or two and a half d
this is common in games like the budokai series, sonic rush, sonic rush adventure, new super mario bros, and more recently, Street Fighter 4

full 3d refers to a game that utilizes the camera view christened "Sonic's Ass" by Crash Bandicoot creators Naughty Dog productions

as for the emerald issue...sonic 1 only had 6 emeralds....okay....i didn't know that....of couse the last time i played sonic 1 i was probably 10 and i still didn't have the patience to make it past marble zone. however, did you know that sonic fighers had 8 emeralds? probably cuz there was 8 fighters in te game, not counting metal sonic, and each fighter had an emerald

how about the comics? I have every issue of the sonic comic series done by Archie comics.

In the comic series on the planet mobius, all the emeralds are green adn sonic only needs 6 to transform, and there are much more than 7....so much more...that nobody on earth knows how many,

In one issue, sonic is on another planet that holds red emeralds. when this planet is in crisis, sonic uses 6 red emeralds to transform into super sonic...but unlike what usulally happens, the red emeralds have a bad side effect that goes from sonic transforming and saving the day to Sonic vs. Super Sonic. But Wait...THERE'S MORE!

Later we find out that tails has more purpose than being a best friend and an annoying little side kick. He becomes the chosen one "Turbo Tails"

So with the evil villan A.D.A.M. (dr. eggman's son) using turbo tails as a beacon to pull all the different emeralds to mobius and using Super Shadows natural powers of Chaos control to speed them up on their path...here comes:

The Green emeralds of the planet Mobius
The Cyan emeralds of the planet Weeet
The Blue emeralds of the planet Xorda
The Red emeralds of the planet Thoraxia
The Purple emeralds of the remains of Teragosa
The power source of Yellow emeralds of the Star E.V.E.
and The Grey emeralds of argentum

Thousends of different colored emeralds coming together

But later with Tails and Shadow free of being captured, Tails fulfils the prophecy of being the chosen one

With the help of super shadow opening a portal to the Zone of Silence Turbo Tails sends the emeralds into the zone of silence and unifies the emeralds..and in the issue later....we find out that they have indeed been unified into the 7 chaos emeralds we all know today.

so there's your backstoty.....yes i know its all out of place as shadow came 15 years after sonic 1 but if you don't believe me then find and read Sonic the hedgehog issues 169 and 170...or just ask me

That's all nice.. except the comic series isn't cannon with the game story line. That backstory really doesn't count. The only true backstory for the emeralds you can use comes from Sonic Adventure 1, which includes their connection to the Echidna tribe, Tikal, and Chaos. So it's rather not that I don't believe you, it's rather that it only remains valid if and only you're using the Archie universe as a standpoint, and when you talk about the games you simply cant do that as you'll find one too many contradictions.

-Setting
-History
-Characters
-Plots
Etc...

And every budokai game after 1 was Cell Shaded, so in a way they were more cartoons then 3d.

I'm a little late, but Sonic and Knuckle's rivalry has been hinted so many times that one needs a smack in the back of the head if they can't see it. They really do have a friendly rivalry. If they didn't Knuckles wouldn't hang around Sonic at all. I mean, they're friendship of being around each other sparks only from their rivalry. You can even see it in those advanced games where when paired, the two look disgusted with each other or something. Someone said that it wouldn't make sense to be rivals because one is strength and one is speed? that's horrible. That's the very basis of rivalry.

"SPEED IS BETTER!"

"NU-UH! POWER IS!!!"

Diffrenciallity(if that's a word XD) is the very basis of rivalry mainly because if they're the same, one will eventually have to back down. Someone also said that Sonic and Shadow hold a more powerful rivalry. Wrong. It was simply a diffrent style. One that Vegeta and Goku went through. Sonic and Knuckls hold a steady rivalry in which it does nothing but either remain the same or grow stronger over time.

When sonic and shadow first met, hell yea they were goin at it like all hell froze over. That, is they very reason why that type of rivalry can't compete with they type Sonic and Knux has. Can anyone tell me what happened after Shadow the hedgehog? no? Shadow let go of the past and continued with his future. That seems to have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about it, but it does. After the events of that game, Shadow became a little softer. He regards Sonic as a annoying, yet good friend. FRIEND. FRIEND. The rivalry has ended like a super nova, and has transformed into a mutual friendship, especially since the guy is now a G.U.N. elite person/soldier/whatever. Sure his rivalry will be reborn in the non-cannon games(most likely in the Knight game) but story-wise, he will only be taunting Sonic probably for old time sakes.



and then someone brought up DBZ and how Street fighter couldn't be a 3D game. It can. It just can't for those who for some reason or another, forget that the people in street fighter are actually FIGHTERS. What, do you sit there and go back and forth in a real fight? Someone also put in an excuse that DBZ only works well because of the super fighting. THat's horrible. Naruto: Uzumaki chronicles is a 3-D fighting game that allows you to do a load of crap. I'm not going to refrence it anymore because it may make me stray from my point. Should street fighter turn into a 3-D game, I'm pretty sure the fighting would be a perfect blend of intensiveness will still being down to earth. If the hadoukens were not to be faster, then it still wouldn't matter because then it'd be more for distraction purposes.(Isn't that what they're used for anyways?) You guys forget dashing, dodgerolling, and many maneuvers fighters do, which leads me to believe that 3-D street fighter may not be wanted, more than not possible mainly because veterans wouldn't be able to handle it. I have no way of describing it, but I see it perfectly in my head how a 3-D street fighter game should be. It'd be very adrenaline-rushing at the very least. It could have more action than DBZ often has(where you have to become really good at the game to see some real DBZ action)

Sonic is full of plot holes.

Also, remember that DBZ uses the Punch and kick and energy button to make attacks, which is why ti works in 3D. SF uses the arrow keys and buttons to use moves.

Well.. It doesn't mean Street Fighter couldn't be transferred to a 3D platform.. The game play would either be

a) More complicated

or

b) Made more simplistic for 3D.

Either way, it's a totally different experience you'd have and then you'd have a change in preference among fans. So I have to say Capcom has picked a good path in terms of that game.

I mean, it's like Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat never went full 3D, with the story mode side which combat system was horrid outside the main combat.

Lets not forget Lylat wars, that was 2D with a few 3D parts in it and that worked really well.

It figures, all the topics I have high interest in are so long by the time I finish reading the first page I'll have gone to sleep. I'm not askin' anyone to sum it up, but allow me to say this: Things change, for better or worse. True, sonic games in the past have failed, some epicly, most of these being 3D games, but is it only because the games are 3D that they were so horrible. I know this has probably been stated already.
And another thing, who's to say that the creaters actually care about making what sonic fans would deem a 'good' sonic game? Perhaps they're only in it for the money. Maybe they only want something 'new' and 'innovative' and verry 'attractive' so that the younger peoples can beg their parrents to get it for them. Think about it, which are there more of, Sonic fans, or impressionable, naive, little children? Sure they may not like the game either, but the fact remains that they've purchased it. Well maybe not them but the game was purchased by someone none-the-less. Or stolen as the case may be but that's another issue to cover on another day. Anywho, (I'm livin' up to my, ... I guess you could call it a 'reputation' as one who speaks acting as though he knows what he does not. It's true, I'm just blertin' out whatever comes to mind, it's what I'm good at really, doesn't make it any less relevant does it? Maybe a little eh? anywho...) the point is that the Sonic Team may not be trying to make a good Sonic game, but instead are trying to make a flashy product.

Just, ya know, a thought.

I agreed with you Soul but not exactly for the same reason.

These days it's easy to make flashy graphics and so games are expected to have them in, but because they're expected to have them in no one actually says "Wooooow niiice graphics" I think the last two games I've said that to are Crysis (known for being one of the best graphiced games these days) and Fallout 3(Post apocalyptic landscape deserves a wow).

But are Sonic team trying to do this? No I wouldn't say that's completely correct, but they are trying to keep up with it and graphics can take a lot of time to perfect and the Sonic team seem to be bringing out Sonic games every time I look at a blumming magazine.

They need to slow down, make a game that is fun, not just playable.

And if they can throw in some nifty graphics.

You're right, I'm not sayin' that they definitely are just in it for the money, but you have to admit that money does have somethin' to do with it, it is a business after all. I was just listin' it as a possibillity. And I agree, they do need to slow down and make a good game. However, if they take a couple of years and dish out more crap people could, nay, will get pissed, and that would be bad for business ja? Anywho, I do think it is possible to make a good Sonic game, it's been done before, they just need to work at it.

The problem is, is that other companys really have to make good games, especially if they're first timers (Assasins Creed, Gears of War ect) where as Sonic has been going on for ages, fans will buy them just cause they're fans

I agree w/ Soul. There are def more niave children and parents. And they maybe the sole reason Sega is able to afford such numerous sonic games. XD

It is most definately the children. and according to my little bro, most kids believe Knuckles to be a hedgehog, Shadow is sonic's brother, Eggman is an egg mutated, DBZ copied off of Sonic the hedgehog, and Shadow can beat anything...among other things.

And then my little bro put up that last point for debate, when a simple pair of sonic and Knuckles--hell, Sonic and Tails can defeat the guy. And then I believe sonic can beat him alone.

But that's no the point. Actually I don't think any of this is the point. Well maybe it adds on to the fact that most people are nieve, and buy thiese games just to shut their kids up. Iunno.

Yeah but the problem is, that sure you might get a child to beg for/buy the game now... but what happens when they grow up?

If they get/play the subpar sonic game and then play other, better games, then they're likely (if they have any intellect at all) going to question further sonic games because they will realise the fact that the game is subpar. And also, it's worth noting that just cause kids buy it doesn't mean alot, I'm fairly certain you can plunk down a kid in front of a screen and pop in virtually any game from the last 3-4 generations (barring ones from languages the kid doesn't understand of course) and keep them entertained for a while. So that being said, you do have to keep a mind on the hardcore gamers, as these are the ones who will make or break a game. If it's poor game, they won't buy it. And that is a sizeable chunk of change that is worth persuing.
And these hardcore gamers are the people who if it's a great game will help spread word about it, and word of mouth advertising is atleast as effective as any of the ad campaigns that Sega can run, if not more effective. They make the the fan made content of all sorts of varieties and thusly advertise for Sega...