Birthdays, I'm not sure exactly.

I don't know how anyone knows what everyones b-days are. But, if it's from their profile, and I'm even here this long. I do not want to be wished a happy birthday. Not because I don't like being happy. I am always happy. But because if God wanted us to celebrate Birthdays, there would be an example in the bible where someone celebrated their birthday and nobody got their heads cut off.

Um. Ok.

And yeah, it is from the profiles..

The birthdays show up on the board stats area.

Hmm. In some of the posts you've made, I've noticed you have a tendancy to run to religion... Not that I have a huge bit against it, but I do find it slightly irking that religion is used as an answer to everything. And I will say this now, it's ok to have your beliefs but don't try to push them onto anyone else. (I'm not saying you are or would) but we get enough religious people trying to convert us (and I say us as in the non-religious or the non-christian people) every day we don't need to be bombarded by it anymore than absolutely necessary.

But putting that aside, if you don't want your birthday to show up, I do believe there is an option to hide your birthday in your profile settings...

I don't even have my birthdate in my profile anyway so It's no big deal...
I've only ever mentioned the bible twice so far, this being the third. and it[the bible], not the religions themselves, does have an answer for everything. You could ask me anything within the realm of logic, and I could give you scripture and known references to show that it does address any and every known concern or idea. Not that it would be me proving anything. It's God's word, not mine. I just have faith in it, not that I show it well here since there are three specific rules I haven't followed since I've been here.

This post has been edited by Yotohan on Jun 21 2008, 10:08 PM

You do realise right now that the bible is a book written by humans, right? Not God. And because it is written by humans, there are inaccuracies and false parts as well as the general gamut of stories expanding from real to epic proportions with ages of retelling.

All in all, the bible is a book of fiction. If you place too much stock in a book like that, your no better off than those pathetic scientologists.

Though if there were a God, then I figure that God would be sighing and saying or thinking:
"How did they mess it up... No really, I only meant for them to be happy and not commit evil... Not all this garbage about an ark and restarting the world." (Or insert what ever other situation you want.)

The bible itself is full of contradictions and problems, if you look you'll see them. (And for me that causes issues with putting any faith in it.)

As for proving the bible doesn't have all the answers...
1- How to cure diseases
2- Origin of the Earth. (Cause face it, Earth wasn't made in 7 days, it took millions upon millions of years.)
3- Explain evolution. (I'll warn you now that if you mention creationism, then you fail automatically. Because it is proven that creatures weren't simply plunked down on the earth as they are.)

First things first. I'm not pushing this on you. I said ask me anything, and you did. I have great admiration for you for asking, and I respect you thoroughly. This is the honest and true answers to those questions.

I'll do disease last because it's the longest.
I have to warn you that, just like anything else, there is alot of reading involved. I only ask that you please read all of it and see if any of it makes sense to you, from an unbiased standpoint.
I also invite you to turn in a bible, if you have one, to any of the scriptures cited. They coincide correctly with the point given.

Origin of the Earth: Creation versus Evolution: we'll discuss both points with references.
Creation first, then Evolution as a separate point.

Was all physical creation accomplished in just six days sometime within the past 6,000 to 10,000 years?

The facts disagree with such a conclusion: (1) Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2) End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.
Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length.

What is the origin of the raw material of which the universe is made?

Scientists have learned that matter is a concentrated form of energy. This is demonstrated with the explosion of nuclear weapons. Astrophysicist Josip Kleczek states: “Most and possibly all elementary particles may be created by materialization of energy.”—The Universe (Boston, 1976), Vol. 11, p. 17.

From where could such energy come? After asking, “Who has created these things [the stars and planets]?”, the Bible states regarding Jehovah God, “Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.” (Isa. 40:26) So God himself is the Source of all the “dynamic energy” that was needed to create the universe.

Does the Bible allow for the idea that God used evolution to produce the various kinds of living things?

Genesis 1:11, 12 says that grass and trees were made to produce each “according to its kind.” Verses 21, 24, 25 add that God created sea creatures, flying creatures and land animals, each “according to its kind.” There is no allowance here for one basic kind to evolve or change into another.

Regarding man, Genesis 1:26 reports that God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” So he was to have godlike qualities, not traits that were simply a development of those of a beast. Genesis 2:7 adds: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man [not out of some preexisting life form but] out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life.” There is no hint of evolution here, but, rather, description of a new creation.

But is it reasonable to believe that everything on this earth was created in six days?

There are some religious groups that teach that God created everything in six 24-hour days. But that is not what the Bible says.

Genesis 1:3-31 tells how God prepared the already existing earth for human habitation. It says that this was done during a period of six days, but it does not say that these were 24-hour days. It is not unusual for a person to refer to his “grandfather’s day,” meaning that one’s entire lifetime. So, too, the Bible often uses the term “day” to describe an extended period of time. (Compare 2 Peter 3:8.) Thus the ‘days’ of Genesis chapter 1 could reasonably be thousands of years long.

Now Evolution

Is evolution really scientific?

The “scientific method” is as follows: Observe what happens; based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true; test the theory by further observations and by experiments; and watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled. Is this the method followed by those who believe in and teach evolution?

Astronomer Robert Jastrow says: “To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature’s experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened.”—The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (New York, 1981), p. 19.

Evolutionist Loren Eiseley acknowledged: “After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past.”—The Immense Journey (New York, 1957), p. 199.

According to New Scientist: “An increasing number of scientists, most particularly a growing number of evolutionists . . . argue that Darwinian evolutionary theory is no genuine scientific theory at all. . . . Many of the critics have the highest intellectual credentials.”—June 25, 1981, p. 828.

Physicist H. S. Lipson said: “The only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it.” (Italics added.)—Physics Bulletin, 1980, Vol. 31, p. 138.

What view does the fossil record support?

Darwin acknowledged: “If numerous species . . . have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of evolution.” (The Origin of Species, New York, 1902, Part Two, p. 83) Does the evidence indicate that “numerous species” came into existence at the same time, or does it point to gradual development, as evolution holds?

Have sufficient fossils been found to draw a sound conclusion?

Smithsonian Institution scientist Porter Kier says: “There are a hundred million fossils, all catalogued and identified, in museums around the world.” (New Scientist, January 15, 1981, p. 129) A Guide to Earth History adds: “By the aid of fossils palaeontologists can now give us an excellent picture of the life of past ages.”—(New York, 1956), Richard Carrington, Mentor edition, p. 48.

What does the fossil record actually show?

The Bulletin of Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History pointed out: “Darwin’s theory of [evolution] has always been closely linked to evidence from fossils, and probably most people assume that fossils provide a very important part of the general argument that is made in favor of darwinian interpretations of the history of life. Unfortunately, this is not strictly true. . . . the geologic record did not then and still does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution.”—January 1979, Vol. 50, No. 1, pp. 22, 23.

A View of Life states: “Beginning at the base of the Cambrian period and extending for about 10 million years, all the major groups of skeletonized invertebrates made their first appearance in the most spectacular rise in diversity ever recorded on our planet.”—(California, 1981), Salvador E. Luria, Stephen Jay Gould, Sam Singer, p. 649.

Paleontologist Alfred Romer wrote: “Below this [Cambrian period], there are vast thicknesses of sediments in which the progenitors of the Cambrian forms would be expected. But we do not find them; these older beds are almost barren of evidence of life, and the general picture could reasonably be said to be consistent with the idea of a special creation at the beginning of Cambrian times.”—Natural History, October 1959, p. 467.

Zoologist Harold Coffin states: “If progressive evolution from simple to complex is correct, the ancestors of these full-blown living creatures in the Cambrian should be found; but they have not been found and scientists admit there is little prospect of their ever being found. On the basis of the facts alone, on the basis of what is actually found in the earth, the theory of a sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best.”—Liberty, September/October 1975, p. 12.

Carl Sagan, in his book Cosmos, candidly acknowledged: “The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer.”—(New York, 1980), p. 29.

Might it be that the evolutionary process took place as a result of mutations, that is, sudden drastic changes in genes?

Science Digest states: “Evolutionary revisionists believe mutations in key regulatory genes may be just the genetic jackhammers their quantum-leap theory requires.” However, the magazine also quotes British zoologist Colin Patterson as stating: “Speculation is free. We know nothing about these regulatory master genes.” (February 1982, p. 92) In other words, there is no evidence to support the theory.

The Encyclopedia Americana acknowledges: “The fact that most mutations are damaging to the organism seems hard to reconcile with the view that mutation is the source of raw materials for evolution. Indeed, mutants illustrated in biology textbooks are a collection of freaks and monstrosities and mutation seems to be a destructive rather than a constructive process.”—(1977), Vol. 10, p. 742.

[b]Do not textbooks present evolution as fact?[b]

“Many scientists succumb to the temptation to be dogmatic, . . . over and over again the question of the origin of the species has been presented as if it were finally settled. Nothing could be further from the truth. . . . But the tendency to be dogmatic persists, and it does no service to the cause of science.”—The Guardian, London, England, December 4, 1980, p. 15.
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I'll do Disease in the next post because the cure for Disease is part of the promise made by God that humans would live in a Paradise by means of Jesus' [Gods son] sacrifice. The evidence that Jesus can cure disease under his rule is evident by his works on Earth. He cured every sort of infirmity on a small scale at that time. History shows Jesus did exist.
The promise is that he will cure on a large scale later.

This post has been edited by Yotohan on Jun 22 2008, 12:28 AM

For the cure of disease, first we can examine why people suffer to begin with.

Why does God permit suffering?

Who really is to blame for it?

Humans are to blame for much of the suffering. They fight wars, commit crimes, pollute the environment, often carry on business in a manner motivated by greed rather than concern for their fellowman, and sometimes indulge in habits that they know can be harmful to their health. When they do these things, they hurt others and themselves. Should it be expected that humans would be immune to the consequences of what they do? (Gal. 6:7; Prov. 1:30-33) Is it reasonable to blame God for these things that humans themselves do?

Satan and his demons also share responsibility. The Bible discloses that much suffering is because of the influence of wicked spirits. The suffering for which so many people blame God does not come from him at all.—Rev. 12:12; Acts 10:38

How did suffering get started? Examination of the causes focuses attention on our first human parents, Adam and Eve. Jehovah God created them perfect and put them in paradise surroundings. If they had obeyed God, they would never have got sick or died. They could have enjoyed perfect human life forever. Suffering was not part of Jehovah’s purpose for mankind. But Jehovah clearly told Adam that continued enjoyment of what He had given them depended on obedience. Obviously, they had to breathe, eat, drink, and sleep in order to continue living. And they had to keep God’s moral requirements in order to enjoy life fully and to be favored with such life forever. But they chose to go their own way, to set their own standards of good and bad, and thus they turned away from God, the Life-Giver. (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-6) Sin led to death. It was as sinners that Adam and Eve produced children, and they could not pass on to their children what they no longer had. All were born in sin, with inclinations toward wrongdoing, weaknesses that could lead to illness, a sinful inheritance that would eventually result in death. Because everyone on earth today was born in sin, all of us experience suffering in various ways.—Gen. 8:21; Rom. 5:12.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 says that “time and unforeseen occurrence” also have a bearing on what happens to us. We may get hurt, not because the Devil directly causes it or because any human does it, but because by chance we are in a place at the wrong moment.

Why does God not do something to bring relief to mankind? Why should we all suffer for something that Adam did?

In the Bible, God tells us how we can avoid much suffering. He has provided the very best counsel on living. When applied, this fills our lives with meaning, results in happy family life, brings us into close association with people who really love one another, and safeguards us against practices that can bring much needless physical suffering. If we ignore that help, is it fair to blame God for the trouble that we bring upon ourselves and others?—2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:97-105.

Jehovah has made provision to end all suffering. He created the first human pair perfect, and he lovingly made every provision so that life would be pleasant for them. When they deliberately turned their backs on God, was God obligated to intervene so as to shield their children from the effects of what the parents had done? (Deut. 32:4, 5; Job 14:4) As we well know, married couples may have the joys that go with producing children, but they also have responsibilities. The attitudes and actions of parents affect their children. Nevertheless, Jehovah, as an expression of marvelous undeserved kindness, sent his own dearly loved Son to earth to lay down his life as a ransom, to provide relief for those of Adam’s offspring who would appreciatively exercise faith in this provision. (John 3:16) As a result, the opportunity is open to people living today to have what Adam lost—perfect human life, free from suffering, in a paradise earth. What a generous provision that is!

But why would a God of love allow the suffering to continue so long?

Have we benefited because he has allowed it until now? “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Pet. 3:9) If God had immediately executed Adam and Eve, following their sin, none of us would be in existence today. Surely that is not what we would want. Moreover, had God at some later time destroyed all who were sinners, we would not have been born. The fact that God has allowed this sinful world to exist until now has afforded us the opportunity to be alive and learn his ways, to make needed changes in our lives, and to avail ourselves of his loving provisions for eternal life. That Jehovah has granted us this opportunity is an evidence of great love on his part. The Bible shows that God has a set time to destroy this wicked system and will do so soon.—Hab. 2:3; Zeph. 1:14.

God can and will undo all the harm that may come upon his servants in this system of things. God is not the one who is causing the suffering. But by means of Jesus Christ, God will raise the dead, heal obedient ones of all their illnesses, root out every trace of sin, and even cause former grief to fade from our minds.—John 5:28, 29; Rev. 21:4; Isa. 65:17.

The time that has elapsed has been needed to settle the issues that were raised in Eden.

We personally are anxious to have relief. But when God takes action, it must be in behalf of all who love what is right, not just a few. God is not partial.—Acts 10:34.

Illustrations: Is it not true that a loving parent may allow a child to undergo a painful operation because of beneficial results that can come from it? Also, is it not true that “quick solutions” to painful ailments are often only superficial? More time is frequently needed in order to eliminate the cause.

Why did God not forgive Adam and so prevent the terrible suffering experienced by mankind?

Would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father.

Similarly, if Jehovah had forgiven Adam’s deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11.) Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better. But such a situation could never have occurred, because righteousness is an unalterable foundation of Jehovah’s rulership.—Ps. 89:14.

Why does God allow children to be born with serious physical and mental defects?

God does not cause such defects. He created the first human pair perfect, with the ability to bring forth perfect children in their own likeness.—Gen. 1:27, 28.

We have inherited sin from Adam. That inheritance carries with it the potential for physical and mental defects. (Rom. 5:12) This inheritance of sin is with us from the time of conception in the womb. It is for that reason that King David wrote: “In sin my mother conceived me.” (Ps. 51:5) If Adam had not sinned, there would be only desirable traits to transmit.

Parents can harm their unborn offspring—for example, by drug abuse or by smoking during pregnancy. Of course, it is not true that in every case the mother or the father is responsible for birth defects or poor health of their child.

Jehovah lovingly extends to children the benefits of Christ’s ransom sacrifice. Out of consideration for parents who faithfully serve God, he views their young children as holy. (1 Cor. 7:14) This motivates God-fearing parents to be careful about their own standing with God, out of loving concern for their offspring. To young ones who are old enough to exercise faith and demonstrate obedience to God’s commands, Jehovah extends the privilege of having an approved standing as his servants. (Ps. 119:9; 148:12, 13; Acts 16:1-3) It is noteworthy that Jesus, who was a perfect reflection of his Father, showed special interest in the welfare of young ones, even raising a child from the dead. Surely he will continue to do that as Messianic King.—Matt. 19:13-15; Luke 8:41, 42, 49-56.

Why does God permit “natural disasters,” which cause extensive damage to property and life?

God is not causing the earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, and volcanic eruptions that are so often in today’s news. He is not using these to bring punishment on certain peoples. To a large extent, these are caused by natural forces that have been operating since the earth’s creation. The Bible foretold great earthquakes and food shortages for our day, but that does not mean that either God or Jesus is responsible for them, any more than a meteorologist is responsible for the weather that he forecasts. Because these are occurring along with all the other things foretold in the composite sign of the conclusion of this system of things, they are part of the evidence that the blessings of God’s Kingdom are near.—Luke 21:11, 31.

Humans often bear heavy responsibility for harm done. In what way? Even when given ample warning, many people refuse to get out of the danger area or fail to take needed precautions.—Prov. 22:3; compare Matthew 24:37-39.

God can control such natural forces. He empowered Jesus Christ to calm a storm on the Sea of Galilee, as an example of what He will do for mankind under His Messianic Kingdom. (Mark 4:37-41) By turning his back on God, Adam rejected such divine intervention on behalf of himself and his offspring. Those who are granted life during Christ’s Messianic Reign will experience such loving care, the kind of care that only a government empowered by God can give.—Isa. 11:9.

Are people who suffer adversity being punished by God because of wickedness?

Those who violate godly standards of living do experience bad effects. (Gal. 6:7) Sometimes they reap a bitter harvest quickly. In other instances, they may seem to prosper for a long time. In contrast, Jesus Christ, who never did wrong, was cruelly mistreated and put to death. So, in this system of things prosperity should not be viewed as proof of God’s blessing, nor should adversity be considered proof of his disapproval.

When Job lost his possessions and was afflicted with loathsome disease, that was not because of God’s disapproval. The Bible clearly says that Satan was responsible. (Job 2:3, 7, 8) But companions who came to visit Job argued that Job’s plight must prove that he had done something wicked. (Job 4:7-9; 15:6, 20-24) Jehovah reproved them, saying: “My anger has grown hot against you . . . for you men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job.”—Job 42:7.

Wicked ones may, in fact, prosper for a while. Asaph wrote: “I became envious of the boasters, when I would see the very peace of wicked people. They are not even in the trouble of mortal man, and they are not plagued the same as other men. They scoff and speak about what is bad; about defrauding they speak in an elevated style. Look! These are the wicked, who are at ease indefinitely. They have increased their means of maintenance.”—Ps. 73:3, 5, 8, 12.

The day of accounting with God will come. At that time he will punish the wicked, destroying them forever. Proverbs 2:21, 22 says: “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.” Then the upright ones, many of whom have suffered adversity, will enjoy perfect health and a generous share of earth’s abundant produce.

This post has been edited by Yotohan on Jun 22 2008, 12:14 AM

As bonus information, I won't go into extensive detail, but out of respect for you, I have included a small comment about the reliability of the bible as being God's word. No scriptures involved, or references, just a comment.

"Jehovah God’s written Word to humankind. He used some 40 human secretaries over a period of 16 centuries to record it, but God himself actively directed the writing by his spirit. Thus it is inspired by God. A large portion of the record is made up of actual pronouncements made by Jehovah and details as to the teachings and activities of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In these we find statements of God’s requirements for his servants and what he will do to bring his grand purpose for the earth to completion. To deepen our appreciation for these things, Jehovah also preserved in the Bible a record demonstrating what happens when individuals and nations listen to God and work in harmony with his purpose, as well as the outcome when they go their own way. By means of this reliable historical record Jehovah acquaints us with his dealings with humankind and thus with his own marvelous personality."

After having read all of that information, I can honestly say that you've really convinced me of nothing.

(A small issue I'll mention now is that I'm not entirely sure of God's gender, or if God actually has one... so I'll say he, but I really mean whatever God wants to be at that moment.)

I had anticipated that you would say that a day is actually longer than 24 hours, but unfortunately it falls into one of those grey areas where it is never clearly defined and so any interpretation can be given. Therefor if I felt like it, I could say a day for God was 2 billion years, and no one could disprove me. Thus not exactly making a very good or convincing argument.


As for evolution... You mentioned the Cambrian age... With the rise of the invertabrates, you cited that there were no invertebrates before then. All I can say to this is that well yes, they had to evolve into invertabrates at some point. And if my understanding of evolution is correct, all started off as single celled organisms, then began dividing, differentiating and mutating into more complex and more complex creatures.
So it would be reasonable to see that before creatures had skeletons, they wouldn't haven been too large yet, and when they died, there would be no mass of solid material to fossilize (and thus find later.) Baring that all of this could have and most likely occured in the oceans, where the organisms would break down and become nutrients in the water for the next organism.
Eventually one organism would likely have developed a more solid structure through mutation, this would have helped it and made it stronger easier to reproduce, but the "bones" may not have been as hard nor as strong as what we know of as bones, and thus when the creature died in the ocean (or on land) the bone may have degraded far too much to really fossilize. So then the first real fossils weren't until bone structures had mutated and hardened to withstand more rigorous conditions.
There also is the possibility that if there were bones from the pre-cambrian era are simply too old and merely degraded into base elements leaving nothing to find. (Even if they were exactly like bones we know of today, they still could have been too old to find, all being broken down. Though likely they would have been in he ocean and not the earth. So recovery from the ocean could be much tougher. And again, the cambrian age was 542 million years ago... )

As for the experts who disagree... Where would life be without someone to oppose every view? that doesn't mean I think they're right, but it does mean that the answers are still unclear and we are still searching. If we thought the bible was right then you know we probably wouldn't still be searching... we'd just blindly accept what it said. But we don't, we want to confirm or disprove it. And maybe you can chalk that up to original sin again...


Which leads me to original sin.
Of which also falls into a grey area because you can attach virtually anything to it and call it justified. But having no way to disprove it doesn't make for a very compelling argument.

And even then it seems kin of silly to attach the cause of all problems to sin... Especially when there is a legitimate medical reason for many things. Like how lead affects brains. You can't say sin caused that because lead was a product of the earth, created when the earth completed its formation. (Far before us.) And lead has it's uses, not so it can punish kids for their parents sins (which seems kinda crazy to have kids punished for parents sins... I mean the kid didn't do anything. But then eventually will we all simply be reduced to nothing because the sin has accumulated so high that nothing could save us?)

And if you say that the kid was fated to come into contact with lead then you've doomed yourself to a determinist view and nothing you can do or say will ever be of free will, and freewill is a key aspect of God and religion, and will therefor counter any aspect of religion you wish to use. (Because God/Religion says you have free will, but if your a determinist then you cannot as it is incompatible with free will.)

I have issues with God and Satan... but instead of retyping them, I shall merely copy and paste my problem with God from another topic where I covered the same issue.
(Ignore most of the first point of my argument, about original sin as it's been covered...)

Source

I would add to that argument that if God were truely benevolent and fair then he wouldn't punish all of us for the sins of two.

As for the cure of disease and suffering... You pointed to original sin, but said that God would heal people... Bit of a cop out answer... seems like that's all the bible can do is make up a single answer and use it to justify everything. Of course they had to ensure that no one could test it otherwise they'd be screwed. As I've covered what I thought about disease and original sin earlier, I'm going to ignore it.

But as for relieving the suffering, the bible says: "pray to God and it'll relive your suffering" but that's not really true for everything, the only thing I'm going to allow of that is that it may have a calming effect on one's psychology... BUT you're only having that effect because you want to believe in something because of the great amount of mysteries in the world and you would look to something for the answers. (Even if that something had them wrong, it was still something to look to.) And so I'm attributing this more of a placebo effect than anything. (You want it to work so your mind will try to force it to.)
Praying to God won't cure cancer, but it'll only allow a small bit of pychological relief from the burden of thinking bout the cancer. It won't do much more than that.

Though for now, I'm going to make one final remark on this topic.
The bible is still written by humans, it is still subject to our flaws, even if God were the inspiration we still wrote it and incoporated our flaws... Especially since the book was written after original sin... Which means that for all you know the bible could be full of sin and leading the blind down a path of sinning, far worse than what a non religious person (or atleast non-christian) might do.
And to me no matter what you say on this saying that it as God's inspiration you cannot escape that God did not write it, therefore the book is flawed and so possibly is the entire religion built around it.

Really, you sound like you like the world just the way it is. And even if not, it is better for everyone to die in despair than to have a hope for the future. It sounds like your argument is that nobody should look forward to having life because this is all you get, and if you get cancer, just forget it. You don't have to believe anything I say, but the bible provides BETTER answers than anything else. You can say nothing is discovered or resolved, but you don't have a better plan to offer, do you?
Nothing that even remotely seems hopeful at any rate.

It's not ignorance to put faith in something that is good.
I have much more happiness for someone who dies happy knowing they will live again and have love and be loved by the ones they lost, than I am for someone who dies thinking this is all we have and once you start to suffer, it's all you can look forward to is dying.

I'm not arguing that they should be blindly faithful either, the arguments are just as sound FOR creation as you would make them for evolution. There is plenty of evidence, even though some may not want to accept it as evidence.
A good illustration is: When you look at a fine piece of artwork, does it help historians to believe that the painter just created this painting by accident? That they somehow just exploded a paint can and got this beautiful work of art? Well that's what evolution is trying to say. This world we live in can be a beautiful place, and we just HAPPEN to have a stable environment to live in that researches say if it had just a little too much of this or just a little less of that, we couldn't even survive. You don't find that an odd coincidence of balance? And yet do you not learn MORE about that painting by talking to the artist themselves or studying the artists own techniques than just making an educated guess?

What do you suggest he do with Satan? Take his free will away? Do you attribute every child who does everything their parents tell them not to as being all on the parents? You said we have free will, well so does Satan. He chose his own actions, you can't blame God for that. It is good for you to put faith in someone that this person would do the right thing, but if they don't, is it now your fault because they didnt? God is wisdom personified. He doesn't look into the future as though he couldn't control the outcome and so he must see what will happen to avoid it, He IS the future. He controls EVERYTHING, including whether a person receives escape from a tragedy or just the strength to endure that event. Would you consider it wise to shield a child from every mistake they make?
If a child plays with a Bee. Now you know this child is not allergic to bee's and it wouldn't be lasting harm to that child to get stung. You've offered guidance to this child, sometimes even blatantly telling the child "NO". But the child plays with the Bee anyway. At some point the child will have to learn on their own what happens. We all receive persecution at the hands of people who are less morally sound and unloving. But the goal is for ALL to change, not just the morally sound ones. If all would change, everyone would be morally sound and loving and thus there would be no persecution.

At least with the bible there ARE answers. You just explained to me an entire idea of how invertebrates could evolve into vertebrates and bodies dissolving and frankly it sounds like it all was just made up in your imagination off the top of your head. I didn't see any references or any facts. Or even any opinions from people of higher learning. I gave you a plethora of information that you can even look up for yourself, and you come back with an imagined idea of how it "could have" been.
I say what I believe is fact... all you can do is call me wrong. You have no real argument.

But really one can explain truth to a person who doesn't want the answers, and at the end of the day, they still won't want the answers. Everyone is only interested in what they themselves want to do, what makes themselves feel good. And if that means they have to shut out truth or do something that is harmful to themselves or someone else, so be it.
It takes real strength to change ones own personality to reflect their love toward others.

This post has been edited by Yotohan on Jun 22 2008, 10:39 PM

Ok, I really don't have the time/energy to read this topic fully, so I'll just reply to the OP.

If you don't wish to celebrate your birthday, or want us to wish you happy birthday, then that is your own personal choice. We say happy birthday as a means of being courteous, and to show appreciation to the members celebrating. This can be seen in the 3 topics I have now. (I have been here for about 4 years.. so that is why I have 3.)

We do this regardless of whether or not they have been here for 1 year, or one month. Regarding the birthdays, I will say that I am not sure I agree with it, considering the fact that many Christians consider Christmas to be the celebration of Christ's birth, which explains the Nativity decor. So I suppose that if we aren't meant to celebrate birthdays, then we aren't to celebrate Christmas, or whatever the actual date of Christs' birth is either. I have heard many say that it is in January or something.. but, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Regarding the bible, I believe that it serves no purpose other than for inspiration. I don't feel like posting it all now, but this post on my forum sums up my belief regarding the bible. I think that this is more or less relevant to this topic.

Note that this is in no way an advertisement considering the fact that I am already linking back to this forum.